Red menace will ‘destroy us’ says developer

On the same weekend Peter Simpson writes about the need for industries to adapt to modern times, bigshot developer Robert J. Macdonald rants about “Marxists, Leninists, Trotskyites, Maoists and Castroites” as the cause of the real estate collapse.

In a speech straight out of the McCarthy era, Rob Macdonald told the crowd at the Urban Development Institute’s annual luncheon that the future of B.C. real estate hinges on not electing the NDP in May:

These people destroyed our industry. And they would destroy us again in a heartbeat. This history is worth remembering, because now we have a lovely Carole James leading the NDP, who is the new smiling, shiny puppet of the left-wing ideologues. And so my friends, we are fast approaching a fork in the road on May 12th. Where either a continued bright future, or a return to the dark times is a possibility.

[Source: The Tyee, “Fear the NDP, not this ‘recession for sissies’: Rob Macdonald,” January 23, 2009]

Remarks like these earned grand applause from the audience of real estate business folk. The role of inflated prices and over-supply was seldom mentioned. Well, that’s not entirely true — Bob Rennie told The Province that “supply” favours price increases by the end of 2009.

Meanwhile, newly built condos across the city sit empty, more units are coming to completion, and rents undershoot ownership costs by about 50 per cent. Incredibly, this scenario doesn’t faze Polygon’s Michael Audain. He blames the correction on “consumer confidence” as if it’s some kind of mental disorder.  Apparently if people were more confident, there’d be demand for cash-flow negative properties.

The insanity must stop. This is hurting Vancouver. It is so hard to accept that real estate prices will eventually settle to historical norms? This isn’t bad for the development industry. Vancouver real estate will still be the most expensive in Canada.

55 Responses to “Red menace will ‘destroy us’ says developer”

  1. Van-zee Says:

    Reading the bit in the Tyee makes it sound like the man just stepped out of a time machine with a copy of Atlas Shrugged tucked under his arm.

  2. Zapata Says:

    a) If ONLY Atlas Shrugged was a manual for the real estate industry. The real estate industry is the beneficiary of socialism through artificially low interest rates, and a bunch of housing welfare programs government fraudulently calls “insurance”.

    b) It seems probable that Vancouver real estate will over correct and, at least briefly, no longer be the most expensive in Canada.

  3. markx Says:

    OK, that stuff makes bush look intelligent and cool headed. This guy seriously need a mental evaluation before being allowed to speak. The industry shills would blame anyone but themselves for this whole mess. Interestingly, Bob Rennie is by far the most optimistic of them all, with the usual suspects suddenly changing their forecast.

  4. blueskies Says:

    ch: loved that graphic!

    Mr. Macdonald sounds like he’s had a .38 calibre lobotomy…..

  5. Matt Stiles Says:

    Well, I dislike socialists as much as the next person, but this just seems like another partisan “flip the blame” game.

    Yes, socialist big government “solutions” are a major contributor to the housing bubble via:

    a) “affordable housing initiatives” that make housing unaffordable by unnaturally increasing supply
    b) manipulating the rate of interest downward and coaxing people into borrowing
    c) by extension, juicing the money supply year-in, year-out by mandated inflation targets, thus depreciating the value of savings and encouraging speculation to keep up with inflation.

    However, the insinuation from Macdonald is that the NDP is evil and the Liberals are angels. This is, of course, absurd. Deep down, all parties are socialists (yes, even the federal conservatives) because they all subscribe to the above policies.

    If you want to point fingers, point them at the entire system. Something I did on my blog today.

  6. Paul Says:

    Yeah, I saw his speech and my jaw dropped a little. It was all a bit much.

    But you know what, the argument of NDP=Economic Disaster is no fairy tale.

    No matter how much you hate developers, marketers, real estate economists, yaletown condo owners, rich people, realtors, and people with small dogs, when the economy starts tanking it’s bad for EVERYONE.

    The last thing that would make it better for everyone is CJ and the NDP.

    Have a look at history.

  7. Johnnyrent Says:

    Never mind Vancouver being the most expensive in Canada. Demographia just released their latest report on world housing affordability. Vancouver is now the most severly over-priced market on the Continent.

    http://www.demographia.com/dhi.pdf

    As to Rennie and his comment about supply favoring price increases in late 2009, what is this guy smoking? 50% more inventory coming into 2009 than in 2008, 12 months of completions still at 18,000, the same number rumored to be owned by investors but unoccupied and population growth still at its anemic pace of 30,000 per year, which translates into intrinsic demand for housing units at (30,000/2.4) 12,500.

    Its one thing to spin fundamentals to your advantage. Its quite another to ignore them altogether.

  8. condohype Says:

    I find the strengths and weaknesses of both parties are overstated. To Macdonald’s point about the NDP spelling complete doom for the economy, I’d say both parties have yet to come up with a solid plan in response to the new fiscal reality. Both the Liberals and the New Democrats were counting on resource royalties to fund surpluses. The commodities crash changed the game.

    Without being an apologist for the NDP — I agree, their economic policy is weak — there’s some revisionist history about the 1990s being a total write-off. The haters are quick to forget the NDP’s success in the growth of the film business. It was their tax credit policies that helped build a billion dollar industry.

    BTW, Macdonald’s anti-socialist tirade is all the more funny considering the building sector is lobbying for a “housing stimulus” package.

  9. anon Says:

    As Garth as said, housing WILL correct to the point where the average family will be able to afford the average house. Historical norms aside, it’s a certainty that values and prices will OVERCORRECT downward.

    As credit remains tight and gets even tighter, values will go even lower as only folks with cash will be able to buy houses. And as hundreds of thousands of unsold flipper “investment” condos come online as rentals to stop the bleeding on their mortgages, rents will be going way down too. Or they will sit, vacant.

    It’s called a Depression. This isn’t the first time. But it will be, by far, the worst.

  10. CJ Says:

    I hold no brief for these pump-and-dump developers and realtors, or for Gordon Campbell’s crony capitalism and Olympic hype, but calling the NDP a bunch of Marxists, Leninists, Trotskyites, Maoists and Castroites is just telling it like it is. They kept B.C. in recession throughout the 1990s when the rest of the continent was having a boom. No mining, no loggong. no construction, no roadbuilding, nothing for anybody outside their tribe. Wanna see a bad recession turn into a depression? Elect the Dips.

  11. Happy Renter in North Van Says:

    Mr. MacDonald equates Capitalism with Speculomeritocracy… Why doesn’t he face the fact the “capital” he was risking wasn’t his own… it was his banks…

    BTW, speculomeritocracy is a system whereby people who have been temporarily succesful speculating believe they are succesful because they are the smartest, cunning and most deserving of fortune whereas when their speculation inevitably fails, it’s the result of someone’s else’s deficiencies or a nefarious conspiracy..

  12. patriotz Says:

    Have a look at history.

    Yes let’s. BC has seen 3 NDP governments (Barrett, Harcourt, Clark). RE prices went up substantially during the first two, and fell about 15% during the third. The Marxist/Leninist/Trotskyite/Maoist/Castroite Glen Clark is now working for Jim Pattison.

    BC has seen 3 major RE busts during the last century – the Great Depression, early 80’s, and right now, and all have occurred under right wing provincial governments.

    If you take away the posturing, you will find that Gordo has not been running the province much differently from Clark – for example remember the Olympics were the NDP’s idea in the first place. The deindustrialization and loss of head offices under Clark has continued under Gordo. The difference is that under Gordo we have had a global RE bubble and a consumer spending orgy that have given the illusion of prosperity, just like south of the border, and which is now unraveling, again just like south of the border.

    As condohype has said, the NDP has neglected to point out that Gordo has no clothes – perhaps because his clothes are really made of the same material as Clark’s – and instead has resorted to petty criticisms like knocking the carbon tax. For that reason, and because I want to see Gordo held fully responsible for the debacle that he has overseen, I want to see him re-elected. And I think my wish will be granted.

    After May, there will be no finger-pointing at the Red Menace.

  13. The Urban Dweller Says:

    The NDP sucks, but that quote was over the top. All in all our politicians aren’t the greatest. If they were the 90’s would have been much better and Gregor Robertson would know the difference between a billion and $800 million.

    You guys can’t think the NDP are better than the Libs for the economy. Socially yes, but not the economy.

  14. TaxHaven Says:

    Never mind the real estate parasites. Prices have to drop to levels that are sustainable in a deflationary situation. But mining, logging and civil liberties all took a beating the last time the socialist ideologues were in power. And resource industries actually DO generate wealth.

    But I have no doubt they will be elected. This is hurting Joe SixPack’s standard of living right in the pocketbook. When the masses become afraid, hiding behind security guards in their “gated communities” and looking upon all passing strangers as unclean if not child molestors, they become very very conservative. Anyone who will promise to spend more of others’ money, guaranteeing them their much-vaunted “social programs” and patting and reassuring the quaking middle classes, WILL get elected. Count on it.

  15. macchiato Says:

    “Demographia just released their latest report on world housing affordability. ”

    thanks for the link to the latest Demographia. Our late start to the crash party sees Vanc. at No. 4, impressive. I look forward to the local media’s interpretation of this.

    Important note: It’s not ‘world’ housing, just the main English speaking countries.

  16. Carioca Canuck Says:

    Condohype said……..”Apparently if people were more confident, there’d be demand for cash-flow negative properties.”

    ————————————————————

    ROTFLMAO !!!!

  17. Tam Says:

    Matt Stiles “Well, I dislike socialists as much as the next person”

    Why?

    It wasn’t socialist policies that got us into this mess – it was years of rampant capitalism – but it will be socialist-esque policies that get us out of it. Nationalised banks anyone?

    Tell me this, if the world goes to pot and society breaks down, would you rather live in the neighbourhood where residents pool their resources and looks after each other or the one that leaves everyone to fend for themselves? There are a lot of worse people than socialists.

  18. jesse Says:

    I don’t know why you bother falling for Macdonald’s old misdirection trick. Pre-blame the NDP for an economic collapse already baked in the cake, then claim Wrath of God when things collapse.

    Look closely at the previous “right wing” governments — the SoCreds. How can you call them “right wing” with all the government funded infrastructure and industry handouts they were so famous for? A previous poster was right that we overestimate the government’s ability to “save” the economy from recession. They can help a bit at the margins but in the end it’s just spending taxpayer’s money and when there’s much less taxpayer money… there’s not too much you can do EVEN when you go deep into debt.

    Macdonald is just scared that the special interests already staked their claims in the NDP and there’s no more room for the likes of him.

  19. Matt Stiles Says:

    Tam,

    You’ve fallen for the propaganda. You’re equating modern day “conservatism” with capitalism. Modern day “conservatism” or “neo-conservatism” is actually corporate fascism – a variation of socialism. And no, don’t try to tell me fascism and communism are opposites – that is the biggest lie ever told.

    Capitalism is impossible with:

    1) A central bank
    2) Fiat currency
    3) An income tax
    4) Corporate lobbying
    5) The Welfare State
    6) The Nanny State
    7) Government subsidies

    I could go on. The point is, none of these things are compatible with capitalism. If you believe otherwise you are using a faulty definition of capitalism (which is not all that uncommon these days).

    And to answer your question of “if the world goes to pot and society breaks down, would you rather live in the neighbourhood where residents pool their resources and looks after each other or the one that leaves everyone to fend for themselves?”:

    Everyone fending for themselves is the way it will always be. To do so is human. Even in your little utopia where everyone helps each other, people are fending for themselves. Everyone robs Peter to pay Paul. Until Peter decides to be a Paul. Then what? To the gulag?

    My interpretation is from Austrian Economics. Something you likely haven’t ever heard of and won’t likely bother learning about because someone else tells you to.

    That’s okay. I had to learn myself also. Yes, I used to be an NDP supporter, and I read everything Chomsky ever wrote. Until I realized that none of it was even close to practical, and had never worked when tried.

  20. Proponent Says:

    I was there too. myself and others definitely murmured a collective OMG at some of his comments. It was however one of the most entertaining keynotes I have witnessed in a long time.

    On a serious note though, i think that his points were good and well backed. The only thing that really makes it a ‘tirade’ is the level of passion and the fact that he is so extremist “they drank the koolade laced with the cyanide of socialism” was probably my favorite comment!

    Anyway. The foundation of what he was saying made a lot of sense. And I agree that the level of fluctuation we are witnessing now are nothing compared to what has happened in the past.

    I dont believe that we will see it all back to 100% per annum increases by the end of this year. but i think a general “real estate appreciates over time” is going to be achieved.

    I also agree with Audain when he said that over a 5 year + period of time, the owners of real estate will always come out ahead.

  21. Canada's Poorest Postal Code Says:

    The Libertarian Mothership has landed!

    Run for cover!!!!!

  22. VancityAllie Says:

    I’m not a big NDP fan but that comment was just way over the top.

    I’ll be surprised if things pick up by the end of 2009.

  23. dingus Says:

    Whenever I see the term “fiat currency” I reach for my tin foil hat and my copy of “Atlas Shrugged”.

  24. Moncrieff Says:

    Tam: Socialistic policies are precisely what got us into this mess The low interest rate policy designed to push everybody into home ownership no matter what the cost is socialism at its most basic. Ditto general inflation and various “insurance” schemes run by government, like the CHMC.

    And “rampant capitalism”??? Unless you lived before 1914, nobody in North America has witnessed such a thing. At risk of being called “libertarian”, there is a reason one of Ayn Rand’s books was called “Capitalism: the Untried Ideal”. Not only that, but Canada has been a thorough going social democracy/ “mixed economy” since the 60s, and never completely abandoned war socialism after WW2.

  25. anon Says:

    The only thing we have to fear is the fearmongers themselves.

  26. Canada's Poorest Postal Code Says:

    Hey Stiles and your sock puppet “Moncrieff”:

    The first time I checked, Condohype was a sharp and witty blog specializing in satirical take-downs of the excesses in real estate marketing.

    The next time I checked, Condohype was a sharp and witty blog that decided to delve into wider issues concerning the real estate market, politics et al, while continuing to parse the rhetoric that spews forth from our civic policymakers/mouthpieces.

    As of today, Condohype is bravely and boldly continuing on in his inimitable way.

    Please stop trolling the board with your with libertarian spam. Don’t take a good blog down.

    Libertarianism: the young, stupid, white male’s religion. Like other cults, it doesn’t belong in an intelligent discussion forum.

  27. patriotz Says:

    You have no clue. Socialistic policies are precisely what got us into this mess

    Here’s a radical idea: why don’t we let the people who call themselves Socialists define what Socialist policies are. You don’t have any problem with, say, letting the Catholic church define what Catholic doctrines are do you?

    There is one member of the US Congress who calls himself a Socialist. His name is Bernie Sanders. Sanders has been opposed to just about everything the Bush Administration has done. Including the TARP bailout.

    Calling neocon polcies “socialism” when in fact socialists have opposed them every inch of the way is one of the lowest forms of intellectual dishonesty.

  28. Nelson Muntz Says:

    Hah-Hah!

  29. condohype Says:

    Socialism, capitalism, botulism, whatever. I’m still giggling over the declaration of Cold War 2.0 at the Urban Development Institute luncheon. Regardless of your political stripe, this is 100% hilarious. You know, it makes me wish I was outside the door peddling copies of Red Dawn. Recession, what recession? Everybody loves discount DVDs!

  30. patriotz Says:

    You may find it funny, but have no doubt, this is the opening shot of the 2009 election campaign. The UDI and the BC Liberals are about as distinct as the BC Fed and the NDP.

    The language coming from Gordo will be less strident but the message will be the same: if you want the value of your house to stop falling, vote for us.

    That’s what this election will be about – keeping the fantasy alive. After May, well they’ll have four years to cook up another one.

  31. Matt Stiles Says:

    Canada’s Poorest Postal Code,

    Never have I been more encouraged in my years of being a Libertarian than after reading your post. The only conclusion I could draw was that we’re winning. Thank You!

    And don’t accuse me of spam. My diatribe is very much on topic for this post.

  32. Tam Says:

    “Socialistic policies are precisely what got us into this mess”

    I’m truly speechless.

  33. Tam Says:

    Stiles and Moncreiff – you say on your blog you’ve travelled widely. Visit Scotland or Sweden or another country where the majority of the population support social democratic policies (or even travel around Canada a bit more) and find someone in a pub to explain their views on taxation, wealth distribution, free health care, etc. Most people in these three countries will be social democrats even if they don’t recognise the term. Some, especially in Scotland and Sweden, will be socialists and they will identify themselves as such. Of course there will be conservatives (with a small “c” compared to the US), but you will struggle to find any neo-cons or libertarians.

    Seriously – get another perspective on the world.

    You are looking at things from a US viewpoint – a country where Liberal has become almost an insult (sadly this appears to be spreading to Canada which is undoubtably a predominantly social democratic nation, Alberta aside). In the countries I mentioned “Liberal” isn’t even a left-wing term – it’s left of centre. I’m not a socialist (I’m a social democrat who believes in taxation to provide services for all – like most people in Canada) but found your statement about disliking socialists “as much as the next person” worthy of rebuke and what followed was breathtaking in its ignorance.

  34. Matt Stiles Says:

    Tam,

    You portend to know what the term Liberal really means (left of centre). Where did the term really come from? Answer: from the latin “Liber” defined as “free, not a slave.” In France, the word for libertarian is “Liberte.” An anarcho-capitalist is “tres Liberte.” Here in Germany where I’m living, the word for Libertarian is simply “Liberal.” If someone asks me here what I consider myself, I answer “Uberliberal.” It’s widely understood that it means I am against taxation, which are a form of slavery. You work the first 7 months for yourself. You work the next 5 months as a slave. Here’s it’s the other way around.

    Social democrats have hijacked the term to use it for themselves in the last century. As recently as a century ago, someone calling themselves a Liberal was a proponent of limited government. Ludwig von Mises, Carl Menger, Eugen Bohm-Bawerk, Frederic Bastiat considered themselves classical liberals.

    There is no ignorance here. I deal with praxeological truths of human action. The preferred condition of everyone on earth being equal (which is something I used to believe in) is not only undesirable (see: Mao’s Cultural Revolution) but it is unobtainable.

  35. Navvy Says:

    Canada’s Poorest Postal Code> Thank you. The worst thing that has ever happened to politics has been the platform given to ‘libertarians’ by the internet. The sites I can visit without being subjected to some first year poli sci lecture have become few and far between.

  36. Sam Says:

    Returning to the subject of the post: Rob Macdonald’s speech. I think it’s wacky because I know Macdonald has at least a little bit of lefty in him. I don’t know how someone could live and work in Vancouver and not be at least a little bit left-leaning. Note, I said little.

    When Jim Green lost the municipal election in ’05, Rob Macdonald was one of the first to call, and he hired Jim to his company to help with social housing plans for the DTES. From what I’ve read they worked well together.

  37. dingus Says:

    Navvy, how can it possibly be idiotic if a big jawbreakin’ word like praxeological is used? Whoever uses a word like that must be smarter than you.

  38. condohype Says:

    Big words and ideological debates aside — let’s not get too excited, remember this is a comedy site that only sometimes dabbles into seriousness — does anyone know what’s next in store for big name RE speakers? I’ve heard rumours of Garth Turner coming to town. Anyone have news?

  39. ABFAB Says:

    Holy crap, while I was in school, my tuition doubled, and now that I have finished, I can no longer afford to even rent a bachelor suite on my social workers wages since housing went up so quickly. Geez, if this isn’t rampant capitalism, I would hate to see what is. What I also hate to see is a quirky fun blog become just another platform for people to be so nasty to each other – “My interpretation is from Austrian Economics. Something you likely haven’t ever heard of and won’t likely bother learning about because someone else tells you to.” tsk tsk. Play nice everyone

  40. betamax Says:

    “There is no ignorance here. I deal with praxeological truths of human action. ”

    Guffaw. You’re an idealogue who swapped one brand of koolaid for another. Grab a brain and try thinking for yourself.

  41. anon Says:

    Unbridled capitalism always breeds fascism… sooner rather than later. One simply cannot expect corporations, entities essentially without personal liability or a human moral compass, to act ethically, unless forced to do so by regulation.

    Corporations are by their very nature psychopathic.

    Remove regulation, and corporations gain and control the government.

    That’s textbook fascism. Psychopathic business entities and the psychopathic people those entities choose in charge.

  42. Canada's Poorest Postal Code Says:

    What’s going on?

    I posted on January 26 at 8:16 p.m. (see what’s left above). Why is only the middle section of my post appearing now?

    If I said anything “out of bounds”, by all means, censure me, but please indicate the redactions with a simple in the appropriate places.

    Or by all means, erase the whole post, but leave a simple message to indicate it has been erased.

    That will send a message of what is suitable to the blog’s discussion area more than just “disappearing” parts of comments or entire comments. IMHO.

  43. anon Says:

    Hey, at least you got part of your post printed. My post on the 27th at 8:59 PM said absolutely nothing objectionable but it’s not the first one that’s been stuck in moderation limbo.

  44. condohype Says:

    Tech update: I’ve gone into my WordPress dashboard and tried to restore comments. I’m not sure what happened exactly. Email me at condohype@gmail.com if you think your comment is still missing. Anon, moderation limbo is sometimes a problem on this platform. Don’t feel bad; it happens to the best. Apparently anything posted by The Pope from Vancouver Condo Info goes directly to trash. Email me if the problem persists. Cheers.

  45. Canada's Poorest Postal Code Says:

    Condohype:

    My apologies. Sorry to bleat at you like that when you had absolutely nothing to do with it. It was just kinda weird that parts of my post disappeared (the parts that weren’t singing your praises – heh, heh).

    I am a newbie at posting – and just a little nervous about how the whole thing works. Thanks for your reply.

  46. dingus Says:

    yeah, mine appeared, then reappeared (to me only, I presume) with a note that it was awaiting moderation. I thought you were just being sensitive about my using the word “idiotic”. Now why would condohype censor “idiotic” and not “praxeological”?, I thought to myself….

    Mystery solved. Shrug.

  47. anon Says:

    My thanks too! It’s there now, and one of my most profound and succinct…

  48. ella Says:

    “The low interest rate policy designed to push everybody into home ownership no matter what the cost is socialism at its most basic.”

    No. It isn’t.

    I’ve been hearing a lot of silly definitions of socialism these days, but this might be the silliest. Do you know who made money off low interest loans? Hint: not the proletariat. Hint part 2: private banks weren’t too upset with the arrangment. A low interest rate is barely statist. If you want to drag Keynes into this, go for it. But please check your facts on the way in.

    “You portend to know what the term Liberal really means”

    portend
    tr.v., -tend·ed, -tend·ing, -tends.
    To serve as an omen or a warning of; presage: black clouds that portend a storm.
    To indicate by prediction; forecast: leading economic indicators that portend a recession

    I think you mean purport. But by all means, keep enlightening us. It’s funny.

  49. ella Says:

    “Unbridled capitalism always breeds fascism”

    That will be heartbreaking news to Karl Marx. He was counting on unbridled capitalism to collapse under it’s own weight and usher the revolution, once the middle class were crushed and stopped siding with the rich.

    “Corporations are by their very nature psychopathic.”

    No, they’re just amoral, and act in self-interest. That’s quite different.

  50. anon Says:

    Wow Ella, don’t know what YOUR definition of a psychopath is, but here’s mine:

    http://www.answers.com/topic/psychopath

    “n.
    A person [or entity] with an antisocial personality disorder, manifested in aggressive, perverted, criminal, or amoral behavior without empathy or remorse.”

    Sounds like a textbook definition of a corporation to me.

    And as far as Karl Marx getting ANYTHING right, I think history has made its judgment on that brief exercise.

  51. ella Says:

    “And as far as Karl Marx getting ANYTHING right, I think history has made its judgment on that brief exercise.”

    Marx foresaw the rise of the corporation and has had enough insight to be read by many major business players, and (no, I’m not a marxist, they are annoying). If history’s judgement was so damning, he would not be included in any basic survey of great economic thinkers.

    But anyway, fascism isn’t the only potential outcome of “unbridled capitalism”. That’s a bit hysterical.

  52. ella Says:

    Oh, for what it’s worth, I am not forecasting the end of the middle class and the subsequent revolution, but I don’t think Canada is about to become a fascist state either. Everyone is so worked up these days.

    ““n.
    A person [or entity] with an antisocial personality disorder, manifested in aggressive, perverted, criminal, or amoral behavior without empathy or remorse.””

    I see that you watched “The Corporation”. My business is incorporated. I make safe learning products for children. Who will protect the children from my “psychopathic” GST filing and additional tax filings? Scared yet?

  53. kuroame Says:

    Did Joseph McCarthy donate a lot of sperm up here?

  54. anon Says:

    Ella, you obviously took it personally, when it wasn’t meant to be. I happen to own my own corporation as well.

    However, WE are not Big Oil, or Big Tobacco, or Big Pharma, or Big Offense Contractors.

    They and their control of Big Gov are fascist in the extreme; we are not.

    Do I think Canada will become that? No, I do not. The pendulum is already swinging back.

    But Amerika already has become absolutely fascist, and for quite some time, and Obama won’t be changing that either.

    It’s what Eisenshower warned against in his famous farewell speech.

  55. mean Says:

    Everything return to the mean. And the historical mean for housing is two and half times the average household income in the neighbourhood you wish to live in. RE has to drop a long ways before itt gets to that mark.

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